Profile
Memberlist
Calendar
Search
Today's Posts  
Pets and Wildlife Forum
Register
Go Back   Pets and Wildlife Forum > Pets > Dogs and Puppies

Dogs and Puppies Chat about Dogs and Puppies


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #21  
Old 06-17-2009, 03:38 PM
Bear's Avatar
Bear Bear is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Eustis, Florida
Posts: 363
Default Re: Pounds/Shelters

Here here, although I got reimbursed for the bear cub
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-17-2009, 04:59 PM
Dogstar Dogstar is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 56
Default Re: Pounds/Shelters

How is paying $600 a year and being required to allow random inspections at any time, day or ngiht, NOT being criminalized?

You can't say it's like licensing a business. Businesses have set hours. Businesses aren't run out of someone's home, and the ones that are, don't require random inspection of the HOUSE. (Check daycare licensure- I believe they have a no-notice inspection in most municipalities and states, but I ALSO believe that they do NOT inspect private areas, just any area where children have access to). Breeding is also not a business. People scream about how 'greedy' breeders are. I have spent probably close to $25,000 on my dogs. I am NOT including rescue dogs in that figure- that is vet care, training, trialling, and showing my own dogs- dogs that in all but a VERY few cases, I have decided NOT to breed. To date, I have not produced a litter yet. I bred my collie bitch last winter and she did not take. I have a second try (from a different bitch) due August 16th. I have waiting lists for more puppies than I could produce if I bred every intact bitch I had in the house back to back for the next two years! The people on my waiting list? Will not settle for a shelter dog, or a dog from breed rescue. They SPECIFICALLY want a health-tested dog with a guarantee and a lifetime safety net. Soem of these people want a dog for sports- they want drive, stability, and health testing. Some of them are just pet people who feel very strongly that a rescue is not right for their life. A few are people who can't get approved by rescue for various reasons (One has small children- they've ALWAYS had dogs and her kids show in UKC peewee juniors- they're better handlers and trainers than most adults I know!, but the local breed rescue won't place in homes with children under 10; another has a very, very strong accent and the rescue won't give a concrete reason- I strongly suspect there is a racial stereotype causing the problem. She's also an immigrant, and her English is not as good as mine. (It's considerably better than my Spanish- and she happens to have bred and shown multiple BIS winners in her home country, although she's retired and just wants a pet now.) And some are just regular pet people who understand the importance of doing the ethical thing and want puppies, not adults.

People complain, additionally, about it costing 'thousands' to buy a dog from a breeder. They use it as justification for going to a crappy breeder or puppymill. "It costs too much to get a well-bred dog, but we HAD to have a puppy because we have kids/our other dog only likes puppies/we were afraid a rescue dog would have isues/we wanted a certain breed." There si NOTHING wrong with wanting a puppy because you want a puppy rather than an adult. But you need to go to a GOOD breeder- one who is ethical, who health tests and breeds for the betterment of the breed and does not contribute in any way to the shelter population. And it does not matter HOW much I charge for a puppy- I will not- and do not expect- to make back the money I spend on my dogs. But I *WOULD* like to at least pay for the litter expenses. I'm already in the red, I don't expect to make money- but I don't think I am a bad person for expecting people to pay MONEY for what they want.

Breeding is a hobby and a vocation. It's NOT a business, and it should not be. The only people who MAKE money breeding are generally those who should not be. Licensure, if it truly is required, needs to be in the form of identifying responsible people and rewarding them for being responsible- not punishing them.

I would like to see every dog, cat, or other companion animal in this country required to have permanant ID (tattoo or microchip) identifying their source- whether it's breeder (including oops litters and taken in strays), a shelter, or a pet store- and anyone selling registered animals (ie, breeding more than one litter, period) would be uniquely identified as well. This would allow us to ACCURATELY track where the source of animals coming in to shelters are originating. For example, cats in shelters in many areas are almost exclusively ferals. This means that a program which pushes mandatory spay/neuter of pet cats in that area will have little to no impact on reducing shelter numbers- while a law that provided funding for trap/neuter/release would work very well. Ditto with dogs. Are we having a breeder problem (which some people seem to believe) or is the problem coming more from casual dog owners who pick up a 'free' puppy from an oops litter given away outside the supermarket, or from pet stores, or from actual registered and licensed breeders. (I suspect a lot of the problem honestly is 'casual' breeders who breed Beloved Fluffy once in her lifetime, keep a daughter and give the rest away cheaply and without screening well or requiring S/N for the pups; then repeat the cycle in 2-4 years when Fluffy Junior is old enough. These folks would NOT be nabbed by most of the MSN laws because with only one or two dogs in the household, most of them will just go under the radar. It's the responsible folks with 'too many' dogs at 6-12 dogs, including a promising puppy or two, 4-5 actively competing dogs, and 3-4 oldies holding down the sofa- who really run into the most trouble, and who are unfortunately, in general, the very best breeders out there.) Those folks have too many dogs to fly under the radar, and too many expenses to make expensive licensure ANYTHING but punitive.

Look at LA's numbers. MSN DOESN'T WORK.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-17-2009, 05:34 PM
MissDolittle's Avatar
MissDolittle MissDolittle is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,813
Default Re: Pounds/Shelters

Not sure where you got the $600 a year and random inspections from, but I'd find that excessive too!

You make a bunch of good points I agree with, with some I don't, because I have seen licensing work. Not for hundreds of dollars of course.

I agree with distinguishing between 'good breeders' and the low life back yard breeders that want to make a fast buck. And that's where the licensing gives the good breeders a chance to stand out.

Hehe yeah, some rescues really got a screw loose, that's for sure! They come up with rules and strange ideas and then wonder why they can't place the dogs.

Very good point on the microchipping every pet, but we can't even get them all their rabies shots or get ahead of the overpopulation...plus our vet for example charges $50 per chip. Way too expensive!

Shoot, I have to run, but let me just make one thing clear...when I spoke out against breeders, I spoke out against backyard breeders out for profit and not giving a damn about the animal, not responsible breeders like yourself.
__________________
MissDolittle
Licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator (Texas)
Don't cry because it's over; smile because it happened!
Rainbow Wildlife Rescue - Kittenbaby - Puppyeducation - Wildife Blog
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-17-2009, 06:31 PM
Dogstar Dogstar is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 56
Default Re: Pounds/Shelters

Y'all don't chip your own? It's not hard to do. That's what I do with my rescues. If I buy a box of 25 chips, it's $9/chip- the last box is gone now (that's why my current lost dog (long story) is not chipped), but I suspect I can get a better price this time around. AZKennelsupply.com has them, just from a quick google, for about $8.50 each. (Lemme know if you wanna split an order- I'll be ordering more to chip puppies.)

The biggest problem that I see is that backyard breeders are 'under threshold'- they're just so low key that no one notices them. I think that's actually our main problem. Once-in-a-while casual breeders are our neighbor Mary Anne, our Aunt Cathy who loves her poodles, or our co-worker Brian who bred his two hunting labs. Dedicated breeders who really are putting in the effort are percieved as weirdos, for having too many dogs, 'mean' for sometimes placing dogs for 'not being good enough' (I've placed several dogs who I didn't think in breeding quality as pets and in two cases as working therapy dogs), as 'snobs' for insisting that it's important to show or trial or work your dogs before breeding them and insisting on 'all that health testing' when the vet says Fluffy is perfectly healthy. Dog people are OPINIONATED. You don't manage to breed a litter without having a pretty healthy ego to weather all the "you're a bad person if you breed!" and "all this horrible stuff could go wrong!" that you'll get if you're involved in rescue or (frankly) even just your local community of dog owners- people at the park, Petsmart trainers, watching Animal Planet! And a significant majority of the breeders I know who are any good came in the back door- they got their first dog as a rescue, dog died young of a health problem, and they wanted that same temperament in a sounder body, and away they went, on a lifelong love affair with an imperfect breed of dogs, who never live long enough and with whom you KNOW, in the end, you will be heartbroken.

here's what I would like to see:

1. Licensing is low fee- on par with getting a driving, hunting, or boating license, requiring a basic quiz about how to do it with a reasonable degree of responsibility- and INCLUDES a basic kennel license. No extra fee for background checks, just a statement that you have no charges or convictions for any animal-related crime and no existing nuisance complaints with the city within X amount of time. DO require it for anyone breeding even one litter or giving away more than say, a single dog, but don't tie it to property inspections or anything like that. If someone wants to breed dogs in an apartment? Okay. Assume they're responsible and that existing nuisance, cruelty and neglect laws will get the baddies. Make this apply to breeders AND rescues- it should be inexpensive enough that rescues aren't burdened by it but it will prevent hoarders that way. Require that the licensee keep records of where every dog goes- but don't require that to be turned over to the city, just that they keep it. (Anyone good is doing this anyway, but that way they're not being forced to be the pupy licensing police.)
2. The "Basic quiz" needs to be scientifically based and concerned with BASIC care and husbandry, without a lot of 'opinion' statements or PC-type answers. (For example "When is the right time to spay and neuter?" is a bad question- there's studies that say pediatric is fine, there's studies that say at least 1 year, and most people fall somewhere int eh middle. But "How often does a bitch come into season?" and "Can a litter have multiple sires?" are both good questions. There's only one real answer for each ("Approximately every 6 months with a 2-3 month variance for most breeds; annually for Basenjis and certain other primetive breeds." and "Yes, bitches release multiple eggs which may be fertilized by different sires but each individual puppy can have only one sire." respectively.)
3. STUDY the problem. Require ID for ALL dogs being sold, given away, or exchanged in your county (that's all the area most municipalities can realistically legislate) and make licensing so cheap that everyone does it. No punitive stuff for intact dogs (A fee that's $5 higher as an incentive to neuter? Cool. A fee that's $50 higher? That's just an incentive to not register). See where the shelter dogs are coming from. Are most of them unlicensed? See how cities like Calgary have gotten their licensing compliance up (90%!) Are most of them feral? See if trapping large rural or vacant areas will help. Are most of them a certain breed? Offer incentived pay-to-spay programs (Free spay + $20 cash for every pit bull you bring in to the shelter vet? That's worked really well in SF!)
4. If local vets aren't on board, get the county vets involved. Get the vets in the next town over. GET ON THE VETS CASE. Get the media involved. Vets won't take spay/neuter vouchers? FInd out why. (In one case here in TX, there was a progrma that was issuing vouchers and not paying vets the $50 the voucher promised. media attention got that fixed! and the vets started taking them again.) Can't afford a local shelter vet? Make an arrangement with a nearby city. (For example, you're outside Austin, IIRC. Can you work with the coalition that's trying to make TLAC no-kill? Or one of the other groups? I've got some contacts for you.) The rural shelter I lived near in MO got LOTS of rat terriers, smallish beagles, and 'surplus' small dogs from puppy mills (mostly male puppies with minor health defects like hernias who didn't sell). We sent them to a group in Pittsburgh that had a shortage of small dogs for adoption. The shelter was still putting down too many dogs- but it was less than it had been.
3. Be willing to accept the fact that there isn't going to be a perfect system. There are ALWAYS going to be irresponsible people that shouldn't own animals- and tey're always going to find ways to get animals. Work to save as many animals as possible, adn don't start to hate ALL people because some are irresponsible.
4. Build bridges, don't burn them. Use the established breeders in your community as a resource- ask them to foster litters, to come to the shelter and bottle feed or work with puppies. Ask them to teach 'responsible breeding 101' classes at the shelter, and work WITH them to help build up informal breed rescue networks if a formal breed rescue doesn't exist.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-17-2009, 08:16 PM
MissDolittle's Avatar
MissDolittle MissDolittle is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,813
Default Re: Pounds/Shelters

Wow, you sure put a lot of thought into that! You might even get this through on a local level, city ordinance wise.

Thanks for the offer on sharing a chip order. My dogs are all chipped and the shelter here can't afford anything. It's a pound. 72 hours after arrival, 80% of the animals are euthanized.

So every home we can find, we'll take. I keep saying "we", I'm just a volunteer, link to the internet, update petfinder.com with pics etc. There is no vaccination, no rabies shots, no spaying, no neutering, just a coupon over 20 Dollars that some vets accept here.

There is only one person that works there, doing it all. They got 45 kittens there at the moment in 2 of those 2 story cages.

Well you get the picture.

I have to run for now, will go through your ideas thoroughly tomorrow. Sounds very interesting on the first look!
__________________
MissDolittle
Licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator (Texas)
Don't cry because it's over; smile because it happened!
Rainbow Wildlife Rescue - Kittenbaby - Puppyeducation - Wildife Blog
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-17-2009, 09:00 PM
pawzaddict's Avatar
pawzaddict pawzaddict is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 68
Default Re: Pounds/Shelters

Too much to comment to LOL. I as well was talking about BYB who breed for money... I know for a fact it does not cost thousands of dollars for vet bills with litters...my neighbor bred her Boxers twice and each time she made very little profit, maybe 100 bucks if that. She did it because both of her Boxers were wonderful tempered and beautiful and she loves the breed. I found a jack russel for 2400....2400 bucks for a dog? I would never pay that much because I would rather rescue personally. I also agree that 600 dollars and such tight restrictions would be a bit much. I meant no argument to come about, just strictly my opinion from being in Arizona and seeing all the horrible BYB going on with the shelters being full to a ridiculous extent.
__________________
Love puts the fun in together,
the sad in apart,
the hope in tomorrow,
the joy in the heart.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-18-2009, 06:07 AM
Dogstar Dogstar is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 56
Default Re: Pounds/Shelters

Thing is? If you're doing it right? YES, it costs that much. Because you do NOT breed dogs just on 'I like 'em and they're healthy according to the vet.' You DO the diagnostic tests that show the things that aren't obvoius. And you PROVE your dogs in competition- not just because they're 'beautifully tempered'. You WORK your dogs, you show and trial them. You make sure that YOU are not the only one who thinks your dogs are spectacular.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-18-2009, 11:31 AM
pawzaddict's Avatar
pawzaddict pawzaddict is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 68
Default Re: Pounds/Shelters

Im sorry I dont agree with that at all...she has had her dogs to the vets and has never had anything wrong and thats all the medical proof she needed, I agree. See breeders who show their dogs to me charge too much for pups and thats why I would never buy from one. Its my personal opinion because I dont like to show dogs, and never would, so would never pay that kind of money when there are pleanty to be rescued. I have rescued all my animals minus the first two ferrets and the first cat I have ever owned. To each their own.
__________________
Love puts the fun in together,
the sad in apart,
the hope in tomorrow,
the joy in the heart.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-18-2009, 04:27 PM
MissDolittle's Avatar
MissDolittle MissDolittle is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,813
Default Re: Pounds/Shelters

Thanks pawz!! I'm not a fan of dog shows either, but that is mainly because of the humans, not the dogs. It looks like that most dogs are having fun in the ring and mingling with other dogs and people.

But from all the people I met in the 47 years of my life that show dogs, 90% had an arrogant streak and looked down on people that own an unregistered dog leave alone a mixed breed from a shelter. That's what's bugging me about the entire scenario.

Of course I met nice people and breeders too, even made a website for a couple. http://www.cedarwoodlabrador.com and http://www.quigleysft.com for example. The latter is also a wildlife rehabber in Washington State.
__________________
MissDolittle
Licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator (Texas)
Don't cry because it's over; smile because it happened!
Rainbow Wildlife Rescue - Kittenbaby - Puppyeducation - Wildife Blog
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-18-2009, 10:04 PM
pawzaddict's Avatar
pawzaddict pawzaddict is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 68
Default Re: Pounds/Shelters

Oh i definitely love the dogs just not some of the people. I went to a house where two breeders and showers or whatever you call them lived and it was the worst thing ever...i called animal control on them. I was so upset by the way their massive amounts of dogs were kept as well as treated (the guy practically slammed his aggressive doberman into the cabinet because he growled at me) I was upset and said thanks for the stay or whatever left and called animal control.
__________________
Love puts the fun in together,
the sad in apart,
the hope in tomorrow,
the joy in the heart.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:45 AM.


Rainbow Wildlife Rescue - Kittenbaby - Squirrel Rescue - Puppy Education - Lost & Found Pets - St Augustine Florida pet friendly vacation rentals

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.